• Transmission rebuild.

    From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to All on Sun Aug 25 14:02:10 2013
    Just got the '01 Durango back yesterday after the transmission rebuild this week. It drives like a new truck once again. I had been putting the rebuild off, but the transmission issues were getting worse to the point of the truck going into "limp mode". I also need to pass the smog test next month, and it would fail given the check engine light with all the transmission codes.

    I had considered selling it and getting a Suburban at the local auto auction, but after a few weeks of not finding a better deal, decided to invest the money
    in the Durango.

    It is nice to have it back and working at 100% again. This issue with the transmission was a delayed side effect to when I had a radiator failure when the antifreeze/tranmission fluids mixed.

    I'm ready for the winter now..

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Jim Haight@1:322/757 to Mark Hofmann on Thu Aug 29 10:27:04 2013
    Re: Transmission rebuild.

    I'm ready for the winter now..
    - Mark


    Ahh there is still life in this echo. Speaking about winter, I am nearing
    the end of my OEM Michelins for my FORD Escape and looking into something
    more agressive for the Cape Cod winters. I've narrowed it down to two tires that seem to be reasonably priced i.e. Firestone Destination A/T and General Grabbers AT2. It seems that both are favorites in the reviews, both offer
    all around performance and longetivity and both have good reputations for not being loud. What it seems to boil down to in the reviews is what vehical they were on.The Grabbers seem a tad bit better in the snow but everyone raves
    about how long the Firestones last. The reviews tend to get hair splitting.
    A third newcomer is the Yokohama Geolander (too many choices). Anyhow, I do a lot of mixed driving being a visiting nurse in a rural area so I run up
    against sand at beachfront properties, mud and dirt roads, and occasional torrential flooding in areas. I am leaning towards the Firestones. Any other ideas out there?

    Origin: Mysteria Majicka BBS; telnet://majicka.at2k.org; Virtual Advanced BBS VirtualNet 1@141000; FidoNet 1:322/757 Cape Cod Massachusetts 10 nodes

    --- Virtual Advanced Ver 2 for DOS
    * Origin: Mysteria Majicka BBS (1:322/757)
  • From Roy Witt@1:387/22 to Mark Hofmann on Thu Aug 29 14:54:12 2013
    Mark Hofmann wrote to All:

    Just got the '01 Durango back yesterday after the transmission
    rebuild this week.

    I guess that I've been ignoring this echo too long.

    It drives like a new truck once again. I had been putting the
    rebuild off, but the transmission issues were getting worse to the
    point of the truck going into "limp mode".

    That's not good, especially for a Mopar...can you do a computer reset like
    is done in GM cars to overcome the limp mode, for at least a little while?

    I also need to pass the smog test next month, and it would fail given
    the check engine light with all the transmission codes.

    If you did a PTC reset in their parking lot, you could possibly get it to
    pass.

    I had considered selling it and getting a Suburban at the local auto auction, but after a few weeks of not finding a better deal, decided
    to invest the money in the Durango.

    What is the difference in fuel mileage? Suburbans are a bit large and too
    heavy to get good mileage. A Tahoe might have served you better. 18" less
    room in the back, but still plenty of room to haul a bunch of kids,
    groceries and other stuff.

    It is nice to have it back and working at 100% again. This issue
    with the transmission was a delayed side effect to when I had a
    radiator failure when the antifreeze/tranmission fluids mixed.

    I knew that would come back to haunt you. Sorry to say.

    I'm ready for the winter now..

    8^)


    R\%/itt


    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-31012
    --- D'Bridge 3.92
    * Origin: Bow Tie Racers, Been There, Done That! (1:387/22)
  • From Roy Witt@1:387/22 to Jim Haight on Thu Aug 29 15:02:05 2013
    Jim Haight wrote to Mark Hofmann:

    Re: Transmission rebuild.

    I'm ready for the winter now..
    - Mark

    Ahh there is still life in this echo.

    We had an incident of losing a poster a few weeks back.

    Speaking about winter, I am nearing the end of my OEM Michelins for
    my FORD Escape and looking into something more agressive for the Cape
    Cod winters. I've narrowed it down to two tires that seem to be reasonably priced i.e. Firestone Destination A/T and General Grabbers
    AT2. It seems that both are favorites in the reviews, both offer all around performance and longetivity and both have good reputations for
    not being loud.

    That's a good thing, not being loud. I switched from Yokohamas to Kumos to
    get away from harsh ride and loud road noise. I liked the Kumos so much
    that I bought a second set when they had just under 40k on them.

    What it seems to boil down to in the reviews is what vehical they
    were on.The Grabbers seem a tad bit better in the snow but everyone
    raves about how long the Firestones last. The reviews tend to get
    hair splitting. A third newcomer is the Yokohama Geolander (too many choices). Anyhow, I do a lot of mixed driving being a visiting nurse
    in a rural area so I run up against sand at beachfront properties,
    mud and dirt roads, and occasional torrential flooding in areas. I am leaning towards the Firestones. Any other ideas out there?

    Take a look at a Kumo in comparable sizes and road tread design in your
    local winter needs...we don't have any weather like you would have in Connecticut, but we do get the occasional flooding after a hard rain. I
    haven't experienced any hydroplaning with my Kumos, but there's always the first time for that. Otherwise, I go where I want to and just smile at
    those who attempt to cross high-running water.



    R\%/itt


    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-31012
    --- D'Bridge 3.92
    * Origin: Bow Tie Racers, Been There, Done That! (1:387/22)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Jim Haight on Fri Aug 30 13:39:43 2013
    reviews tend to get hair splitting. A third newcomer is the Yokohama Geolander (too many choices). Anyhow, I do a lot of mixed driving being a

    The only one of those I can speak about is the Yokohama Geolanders. I have nothing but positive things to say about Yokohama tires. I had them on the Durango previously, and they were very nice tires.

    I also have Yokohama tires on my Monte Carlo. They are not too expensive, last
    long, and are overall nice tires.

    I have had bad experiences with Bridgestone/Firestone, so I avoid them. Had those on the Monte before, and it made the ride rough and they were also very loud. The Yokohamas are WAY better than the Firestones I had on there before.

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Roy Witt on Fri Aug 30 13:46:46 2013
    That's not good, especially for a Mopar...can you do a computer reset
    like is done in GM cars to overcome the limp mode, for at least a little while?

    Yes, I kept resetting the battery to get it out of limp mode before taking it to the transmission shop.

    If you did a PTC reset in their parking lot, you could possibly get it to pass.

    It would have still failed, because they can tell you reset the computer. There
    are several tests that the computer has to run through after a reset - and if they are not finished, they will not pass the vehicle.

    I have been driving the truck for almost 200 miles now and it still has one last test to complete before being ready for the emessions test.

    What is the difference in fuel mileage? Suburbans are a bit large and too heavy to get good mileage. A Tahoe might have served you better. 18" less room in the back, but still plenty of room to haul a bunch of kids, groceries and other stuff.

    The V8-4.7 Durango gets an average of 16-18mpg. The Suburbans are listed as 12/17.

    I looked at a Tahoe also, but figured if I'm going bigger, might as well go for
    the biggest. :)

    I knew that would come back to haunt you. Sorry to say.

    Yes, the owner of the transmission shop said I was lucky to get two additional years out of the transmission after that happened. Much in part because we don't drive it that often now that my wife has her Lexus.

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Roy Witt@1:387/22 to Mark Hofmann on Fri Aug 30 16:10:01 2013
    Brer Mark Hofmann wrote to Brer Roy Witt about Re: Transmission rebuild.:



    That's not good, especially for a Mopar...can you do a computer
    reset like is done in GM cars to overcome the limp mode, for at
    least a little while?

    Yes, I kept resetting the battery to get it out of limp mode before
    taking it to the transmission shop.

    Hmmm. On GM products, you open the fuse panel, then turn on the ignition switch, then remove the CPU fuse. Leave it removed for 20 seconds, turn
    off the ignition and reinsert the fuse. GM computers are 'learning'
    computers, so what you get is back to basics, where the CPU is in learning
    mode and you drive it for a mile or two and let it learn how you drive.

    I had to do this several times on the Z28 while in California, as I was
    getting a O2 sensor code (check engine light). Come to find out that it
    was the gasoline I was using, so I went to a different brand and the codes stopped appearing as often. They've never returned while here in Texas.

    If you did a PTC reset in their parking lot, you could possibly get
    it to pass.

    It would have still failed, because they can tell you reset the
    computer. There are several tests that the computer has to run
    through after a reset - and if they are not finished, they will not
    pass the vehicle.

    That must be a Chrysler thing. GM computers are wiped clean with a reset, history and codes included.

    I have been driving the truck for almost 200 miles now and it still
    has one last test to complete before being ready for the emessions
    test.

    That's cool.

    What is the difference in fuel mileage? Suburbans are a bit large
    and too heavy to get good mileage. A Tahoe might have served you
    better. 18" less room in the back, but still plenty of room to haul
    a bunch of kids, groceries and other stuff.

    The V8-4.7 Durango gets an average of 16-18mpg. The Suburbans are
    listed as 12/17.

    Yeah, I don't think my Suburban gets that kind of mileage. My Silverado
    gets around 22 max highway in OD, 15 around town w/4.8L and only using 3rd (1:1) gear.

    The suburban is pretty good on fuel, but it's a 1989, before OBD 1 even.

    I looked at a Tahoe also, but figured if I'm going bigger, might as
    well go for the biggest. :)

    A lot of people do. Around here you see a lot of them.

    I knew that would come back to haunt you. Sorry to say.

    Yes, the owner of the transmission shop said I was lucky to get two additional years out of the transmission after that happened. Much
    in part because we don't drive it that often now that my wife has her Lexus.

    Ahhhh, kick back and enjoy the luxury...


    Tenga un gran dia!

    R\%/itt



    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-31012
    --- D'Bridge 3.92
    * Origin: Bow Tie Racers, Been There, Done That! (1:387/22)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Roy Witt on Fri Aug 30 19:22:07 2013
    I had to do this several times on the Z28 while in California, as I was getting a O2 sensor code (check engine light). Come to find out that it
    was the gasoline I was using, so I went to a different brand and the
    codes stopped appearing as often. They've never returned while here in Texas.

    Most cars have more than (1) O2 sensors these days. One before the cat - and one after the cat. I would imagine your Camaro is like that. Did you find out
    which one was throwing the code?

    That must be a Chrysler thing. GM computers are wiped clean with a reset, history and codes included.

    My Monte Carlo is the same way. The software I use shows the tests that are to
    complete based on the type of vehicle. The final test that takes many miles and driving is the "EVAP Test". The other ones happen fairly quickly. Once that last test completes, then it shows "Ready to be tested" and would pass if there are no codes.

    Yeah, I don't think my Suburban gets that kind of mileage. My Silverado gets around 22 max highway in OD, 15 around town w/4.8L and only using
    3rd (1:1) gear.

    The suburban is pretty good on fuel, but it's a 1989, before OBD 1 even.

    Yes, not bad considering how huge they are. I was looking at both a 1997 and a
    1999 Suburban. Both show 12/17mpg, which on the highway isn't too bad. They are just massive vehicles.

    Going to replace the blower motor in the Durango tomorrow morning. Just three bolts while laying upside down on my back. Piece of cake. :)

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Roy Witt@1:387/22 to Mark Hofmann on Sat Aug 31 12:35:30 2013
    Brer Mark Hofmann wrote to Brer Roy Witt about Re: Transmission rebuild.:



    I had to do this several times on the Z28 while in California, as I
    was getting a O2 sensor code (check engine light). Come to find out
    that it was the gasoline I was using, so I went to a different brand
    and the codes stopped appearing as often. They've never returned
    while here in Texas.

    Most cars have more than (1) O2 sensors these days. One before the
    cat - and one after the cat. I would imagine your Camaro is like
    that. Did you find out which one was throwing the code?

    Yes, it has 4, two before the cat and two after. Dual Exhaust, you know.
    We found that one of the after cat sensors was the one signaling the
    computer to err, but it checked out as good in up close testing.

    That must be a Chrysler thing. GM computers are wiped clean with a
    reset, history and codes included.

    My Monte Carlo is the same way. The software I use shows the tests
    that are to complete based on the type of vehicle. The final test
    that takes many miles and driving is the "EVAP Test". The other ones happen fairly quickly. Once that last test completes, then it shows "Ready to be tested" and would pass if there are no codes.

    Yeah, I don't think my Suburban gets that kind of mileage. My
    Silverado gets around 22 max highway in OD, 15 around town w/4.8L
    and only using 3rd (1:1) gear.

    The suburban is pretty good on fuel, but it's a 1989, before OBD 1
    even.

    Yes, not bad considering how huge they are. I was looking at both a
    1997 and a 1999 Suburban. Both show 12/17mpg, which on the highway
    isn't too bad. They are just massive vehicles.

    Be sure you check which engine the later models have. The 97 still had the 5.7L, while the 99 could have either the 5.7L or the new for 99, 5.3L LS engine. GM got pretty close to perfection on the 97-98 fuel injection,
    then switched to the new design in 99 and full on LS engines after that.
    My high school buddy in Illinois bought a 2007 Tahoe and it came with the smaller size 4.8L LS, the same one that's in my 02 Silverado. He tows a
    boat and trailer and was disappointed that it downshifted to 3rd on hills.

    Going to replace the blower motor in the Durango tomorrow morning.
    Just three bolts while laying upside down on my back. Piece of cake.
    :)

    All Girls Garage pointed out that the Toyota Tundras have the same
    problem. They blamed the blower motor speed resistor, which is probably
    your Durango's problem too.


    Tenga un gran dia!

    R\%/itt



    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-31012
    --- D'Bridge 3.92
    * Origin: Bow Tie Racers, Been There, Done That! (1:387/22)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Roy Witt on Sun Sep 1 09:30:05 2013
    Yes, it has 4, two before the cat and two after. Dual Exhaust, you know.
    We found that one of the after cat sensors was the one signaling the computer to err, but it checked out as good in up close testing.

    My daughter's old car had a similar issue with the O2 sensor after the cat. In
    her case, however, the cat was probably not functioning as good as it should have.

    To save spending a fortune on a new cat, I bought offsets for the O2 sensor after the cat. That allows it to still get a reading, but not as much as being
    directly in the flow. They are used for people that remove their cats, but don't want a check engine code up all the time. :)

    Be sure you check which engine the later models have. The 97 still had
    the 5.7L, while the 99 could have either the 5.7L or the new for 99, 5.3L LS engine. GM got pretty close to perfection on the 97-98 fuel injection, then switched to the new design in 99 and full on LS engines after that.
    My high school buddy in Illinois bought a 2007 Tahoe and it came with the smaller size 4.8L LS, the same one that's in my 02 Silverado. He tows a boat and trailer and was disappointed that it downshifted to 3rd on
    hills.

    In this particular case, it was the 5.7L. They have both a 97' and 99' at the local auction and they are still there. $1900 for the 97' and $2100 for the 99'. I was tempted on the 99', but the A/C wasn't functioning. Everything else checked out.

    All Girls Garage pointed out that the Toyota Tundras have the same
    problem. They blamed the blower motor speed resistor, which is probably your Durango's problem too.

    Yes, it is a very common problem with them. Last time I went to a junk yard just looking for a few items, you could see where the Durangos and Dakotas had their resisters, wire harness, and blowers stripped already. I had finally located one way in the back that still had the wire harness, which I cut out to
    remove and installed in our Durango. The old one had melted and fused together
    really bad, enough to short wires.

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Jim Haight@1:322/757 to Mark Hofmann on Sun Sep 1 09:53:48 2013
    Re: Re: Transmission rebuild.

    The only one of those I can speak about is the Yokohama Geolanders. I have nothing but positive things to say about Yokohama tires. I had them on the Durango previously, and they were very nice tires.

    I'll look at the Geolanders again Mark. Even my dealer sells them. I too bought Yokohamas to replace the OEM Michelins on a Honda Accord and were delighted with the improvement of the tire overall. Stock Michelins lasted about 32k but on the Escape, I have well over 50k now with the Michelin
    Tours. They are well balanced but not for 10 + inches of snow or mud etc.
    When you look at reviews you still have to consider what cars are wearing
    what tire considering the weight distribution and the owner's diligence with regards to rotating tires and maintaining suspension geometry.

    Jim Haight

    Origin: Mysteria Majicka BBS; telnet://majicka.at2k.org; Virtual Advanced BBS VirtualNet 1@141000; FidoNet 1:322/757 Cape Cod Massachusetts 10 nodes

    --- Virtual Advanced Ver 2 for DOS
    * Origin: Mysteria Majicka BBS (1:322/757)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Jim Haight on Mon Sep 2 08:11:41 2013
    I'll look at the Geolanders again Mark. Even my dealer sells them. I too bought Yokohamas to replace the OEM Michelins on a Honda Accord and were delighted with the improvement of the tire overall. Stock Michelins
    lasted about 32k but on the Escape, I have well over 50k now with the Michelin Tours. They are well balanced but not for 10 + inches of snow or

    The Geolanders were decent tires on the Durango. The only reason I went with a
    different tire this time around was the price was less and the reviews were still good.

    Currently, I have Definity Dakota A/T tires on the Durango (from Pep Boys). They got great reviews and are relatively inexpensive. No complaints, but they
    are a bit louder than the Geolanders - mainly because they have deep treads. I'm ok with that on a truck, though.

    The Monte Carlo has Yokohamas - the best tires the Monte Carlo has ever had.

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Roy Witt@1:387/22 to Mark Hofmann on Wed Sep 4 11:44:51 2013
    Brer Mark Hofmann wrote to Brer Roy Witt about Re: Transmission rebuild.:



    Yes, it has 4, two before the cat and two after. Dual Exhaust, you
    know. We found that one of the after cat sensors was the one
    signaling the computer to err, but it checked out as good in up
    close testing.

    My daughter's old car had a similar issue with the O2 sensor after
    the cat. In her case, however, the cat was probably not functioning
    as good as it should have.

    To save spending a fortune on a new cat, I bought offsets for the O2 sensor after the cat. That allows it to still get a reading, but not
    as much as being directly in the flow. They are used for people that remove their cats, but don't want a check engine code up all the
    time. :)

    The LS1 Camaro guys would use something similar that would allow their
    cars to pass California smog checks. They'd replace all O2 sensors with
    them, which would satisfy the ECM's need for a certain range of oxygen
    content.

    Be sure you check which engine the later models have. The 97 still
    had the 5.7L, while the 99 could have either the 5.7L or the new for
    99, 5.3L LS engine. GM got pretty close to perfection on the 97-98
    fuel injection, then switched to the new design in 99 and full on LS
    engines after that. My high school buddy in Illinois bought a 2007
    Tahoe and it came with the smaller size 4.8L LS, the same one that's
    in my 02 Silverado. He tows a boat and trailer and was disappointed
    that it downshifted to 3rd on hills.

    In this particular case, it was the 5.7L. They have both a 97' and
    99' at the local auction and they are still there. $1900 for the 97'
    and $2100 for the 99'. I was tempted on the 99', but the A/C wasn't functioning. Everything else checked out.

    My next door neighbor just parked his 08 Chevy duramax and bought a daily driver, an 02 2500HD. It's AC wasn't working, so his dad or FIL came over
    and helped him replace and clean the system. The compressor had exploded internally and filled the system with junk. Not a hard job, just hard to
    get to. They removed inner fenders and wheels to get to the compressor.

    All Girls Garage pointed out that the Toyota Tundras have the same
    problem. They blamed the blower motor speed resistor, which is
    probably your Durango's problem too.

    Yes, it is a very common problem with them. Last time I went to a
    junk yard just looking for a few items, you could see where the
    Durangos and Dakotas had their resisters, wire harness, and blowers stripped already. I had finally located one way in the back that
    still had the wire harness, which I cut out to remove and installed
    in our Durango. The old one had melted and fused together really
    bad, enough to short wires.

    8^) I had a 150amp Tig welder in my shop that did that to the power lines
    and blew the utiliy company's 100 amp fuse. The welders found a
    replacement fuse and blew it again when they tripped the breaker. This
    happened while we were in AZ on a well needed vacation. When I got back
    to the shop, 4 days later, I removed the wiring from the breaker box and
    found that the line was melted together and probably touching the
    conduit. I pulled some new wires through the conduit and all was well
    again, but I wouldn't allow the welders to use that welder on any heavy
    jobs again.


    R\%/itt



    --- Ya have ta ask yourself: What Would Roy Witt Do?
    * Origin: Lone-Star BBS - San Antonio, Texas - USA (1:387/22)
  • From Mark Hofmann@1:261/1304 to Roy Witt on Thu Sep 5 15:44:25 2013
    My next door neighbor just parked his 08 Chevy duramax and bought a daily driver, an 02 2500HD. It's AC wasn't working, so his dad or FIL came over and helped him replace and clean the system. The compressor had exploded internally and filled the system with junk. Not a hard job, just hard to get to. They removed inner fenders and wheels to get to the compressor.

    Sometimes it is difficult to get all the junk out of the A/C system if the failure was compressor related. Sometimes they fail and don't throw junk in the system.

    Most of the cases I have seen with A/C systems are leak related. Many sleezy side of the road used car salesmen would just re-charge the system so it appears to work. Then 6-8 months later, it is not working again.

    and blew the utiliy company's 100 amp fuse. The welders found a
    replacement fuse and blew it again when they tripped the breaker. This happened while we were in AZ on a well needed vacation. When I got back
    to the shop, 4 days later, I removed the wiring from the breaker box and found that the line was melted together and probably touching the
    conduit. I pulled some new wires through the conduit and all was well again, but I wouldn't allow the welders to use that welder on any heavy jobs again.

    That is a ton of amps on that fuse! Not something I would want to stand next to if it shorted out. :)

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (1:261/1304.0)
  • From Roy Witt@1:387/22 to Mark Hofmann on Thu Sep 5 19:18:22 2013
    Brer Mark Hofmann wrote to Brer Roy Witt about Re: Transmission rebuild.:



    My next door neighbor just parked his 08 Chevy duramax and bought a
    daily driver, an 02 2500HD. It's AC wasn't working, so his dad or
    FIL came over and helped him replace and clean the system. The
    compressor had exploded internally and filled the system with junk.
    Not a hard job, just hard to get to. They removed inner fenders and
    wheels to get to the compressor.

    Sometimes it is difficult to get all the junk out of the A/C system
    if the failure was compressor related. Sometimes they fail and don't throw junk in the system.

    That's why my neighbor's dad replaced all of the 'bolt-on' equipment and
    blew out the remainder.

    Most of the cases I have seen with A/C systems are leak related.
    Many sleezy side of the road used car salesmen would just re-charge
    the system so it appears to work. Then 6-8 months later, it is not working again.

    And they contaminate the AC system with leak stoppage freon. That means
    you have to clean it out before adding new parts to it.

    and blew the utiliy company's 100 amp fuse. The welders found a
    replacement fuse and blew it again when they tripped the breaker.
    This happened while we were in AZ on a well needed vacation. When I
    got back to the shop, 4 days later, I removed the wiring from the
    breaker box and found that the line was melted together and probably
    touching the conduit. I pulled some new wires through the conduit
    and all was well again, but I wouldn't allow the welders to use that
    welder on any heavy jobs again.

    That is a ton of amps on that fuse! Not something I would want to
    stand next to if it shorted out. :)

    Fortunately, that fuse is contained in a high voltage locker. Not to
    mention that it costs $27. All in all, they spent $52 on just fuses. 8^)
    If I had charged them to replace the burnt wire, they would have spent
    $1052...

    R\%/itt



    --- Ya have ta ask yourself: What Would Roy Witt Do?
    * Origin: Lone-Star BBS - San Antonio, Texas - USA (1:387/22)