• Still here

    From Tim Grooms@1:19/38 to All on Fri Apr 17 23:11:41 2020
    I'm still monitoring as well. Learned to program in Waterloo Pascal on a Commodore Superpet back in the day (1983).

    Haven't used it in a while. Still have it i DOSBox and on my Commodore 128 under CP/M.

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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Tim Grooms on Sat Apr 18 16:40:00 2020
    On 04-17-20 23:11, Tim Grooms wrote to All <=-

    I'm still monitoring as well. Learned to program in Waterloo Pascal on
    a Commodore Superpet back in the day (1983).

    My Pascal background is Turbo Pascal. I initially started with TP3 on CP/M, and a couple of years later, used it on DOS, eventually moving to TP4 and TP5. Would like to relearn Pascal, but this time with FreePascal.


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  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Tony Langdon on Sat Apr 18 11:35:00 2020
    Tony Langdon wrote to Tim Grooms <=-

    I'm still monitoring as well. Learned to program in Waterloo Pascal on
    a Commodore Superpet back in the day (1983).

    My Pascal background is Turbo Pascal. I initially started with
    TP3 on CP/M, and a couple of years later, used it on DOS,
    eventually moving to TP4 and TP5. Would like to relearn Pascal,
    but this time with FreePascal.

    I started with TP4 / TP5 on DOS also, but have not done anything
    with it for many years. Also am looking to re-learn things, and
    with FreePascal. I've now got it (FP) installed on Linux, along
    wiht Lazarus, and am planning to fiddle with it as time permits.
    Maybe we can all revive this echo a little with questions as we go
    along... :-)

    One of my issues at the moment is that a lot of what I did write
    years ago (just a few small utilities for personal use) relied on
    some "third party" Units. Specifically the "Turbo Technojocks
    Toolkit" units. Have already tried to compile one of those units
    on FP and it fails. So, my small programs can't (as currently
    written) be compiled on FP. I wish somebody with the skills
    would/could "port" those units over to FP. I suppose there are
    probably some similar units available for FP, but haven't had time
    to look into that much yet.



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  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Tony Langdon on Sun Apr 19 07:54:00 2020
    Tony Langdon wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    I started with TP4 / TP5 on DOS also, but have not done anything
    with it for many years. Also am looking to re-learn things, and
    with FreePascal. I've now got it (FP) installed on Linux, along
    wiht Lazarus, and am planning to fiddle with it as time permits.
    Maybe we can all revive this echo a little with questions as we go along... :-)

    That actually sounds like a great idea, and perhaps if we learn
    together, it might help me get into FP and Lazarus. I've only
    done basic stuff, one level above "Hello, World" in FP so far. :)

    I'm at a very basic level as well. Am going to try and fit some
    time into my schedule to work on this a little, so hopefully will
    have some questions/posts here off and on...


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  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Tony Langdon on Sun Apr 19 09:57:41 2020
    Re: Re: Still here
    By: Tony Langdon to Dan Clough on Sun Apr 19 2020 12:23:00


    Yeah, I've generally only used units like Crt, which FP does actually have, so this isn't an issue for me.

    that unit should only be used in certain specific cases... generally speaking, it isn't needed for most code...

    But what will be a longer learning curve is taking advantage of today's network environment - how to communicate over IP (v4 and v6) and manage TCP, UDP, etc. There's been more than a few times I've wanted a simple network daemon, but I don't have the necessary knowledge to do that in
    any language.

    the libs are already written... all you have to do it use them and add your code to manipulate the data sent/received as desired...

    when i was going more pascal coding than i am now, i spent a good part of the time stripping out my custom routines because they already exist in the available libraries... i also spent a lot of time ripping out my custom ASM code because it was easier to use the pascal versions that did the same plus had more features than my speciality code did...

    where i spent a lot of time writing a pascal version of the C time_t routines, those were also ripped out because there are more and easier to use time routines than what my lowlevel ones provided...

    direct memory addressing like reading the BIOS serial and parallel port addresses and writing directly to video RAM are not used any more... the OS simply won't let you have access to the hardware any more... using the TP mode does allow almost all old TP code to be compiled but you'll definitely have to rip direct memory addressing stuff out and find other routines to replace many commercial libs you may have used... some of those old commercial routines are now open and already rewritten and included with FPC and/or Lazarus...


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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Dan Clough on Sun Apr 19 12:23:00 2020
    On 04-18-20 11:35, Dan Clough wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    I started with TP4 / TP5 on DOS also, but have not done anything
    with it for many years. Also am looking to re-learn things, and
    with FreePascal. I've now got it (FP) installed on Linux, along
    wiht Lazarus, and am planning to fiddle with it as time permits.
    Maybe we can all revive this echo a little with questions as we go along... :-)

    That actually sounds like a great idea, and perhaps if we learn together, it might help me get into FP and Lazarus. I've only done basic stuff, one level above "Hello, World" in FP so far. :)

    One of my issues at the moment is that a lot of what I did write
    years ago (just a few small utilities for personal use) relied on
    some "third party" Units. Specifically the "Turbo Technojocks
    Toolkit" units. Have already tried to compile one of those units
    on FP and it fails. So, my small programs can't (as currently
    written) be compiled on FP. I wish somebody with the skills
    would/could "port" those units over to FP. I suppose there are
    probably some similar units available for FP, but haven't had time
    to look into that much yet.

    Yeah, I've generally only used units like Crt, which FP does actually have, so this isn't an issue for me. But what will be a longer learning curve is taking advantage of today's network environment - how to communicate over IP (v4 and v6) and manage TCP, UDP, etc. There's been more than a few times I've wanted a simple network daemon, but I don't have the necessary knowledge to do that in any language.


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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Dan Clough on Mon Apr 20 08:53:00 2020
    On 04-19-20 07:54, Dan Clough wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    I'm at a very basic level as well. Am going to try and fit some
    time into my schedule to work on this a little, so hopefully will
    have some questions/posts here off and on...

    Cool. :) I've got kind of sidetracked by amateur radio stuff, though that hobby is also fertile ground for new projects. One that would be useful and would involve a bit of coding is a piece of software that emulates a particular brand of radio, translates support commands to a real radio and simulates many others. The purpose would be to my my FT-736R more acceptable to rig control software, because the FT-736R's computer control is very basic. You're only able to set frequency, mode and a few other functions. A big limitation is you can't read anything.

    However, because enabling computer control locks out the radio's fromt panel, having an intermediate piece of software to save those settings for later reading should (in theory) work.

    Probably be a long time before I'm ready to take that on (and simpler to buy a new radio LOL). But I'd definitely like to have that capability.


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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to mark lewis on Mon Apr 20 09:01:00 2020
    On 04-19-20 09:57, mark lewis wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Re: Re: Still here
    By: Tony Langdon to Dan Clough on Sun Apr 19 2020 12:23:00


    Yeah, I've generally only used units like Crt, which FP does actually have, so this isn't an issue for me.

    that unit should only be used in certain specific cases... generally speaking, it isn't needed for most code...

    Guess what, first program I put in, it was needed. :) Can't remember what function it was for now. :)

    the libs are already written... all you have to do it use them and add your code to manipulate the data sent/received as desired...

    And that's the part I need to learn. ;) Reading FP documentation on network programming and using the libraries didn't help.

    when i was going more pascal coding than i am now, i spent a good part
    of the time stripping out my custom routines because they already exist
    in the available libraries... i also spent a lot of time ripping out my custom ASM code because it was easier to use the pascal versions that
    did the same plus had more features than my speciality code did...

    I bet there's a lot more good libraries around now.

    direct memory addressing like reading the BIOS serial and parallel port addresses and writing directly to video RAM are not used any more...
    the OS simply won't let you have access to the hardware any more...

    Yeah, no surprise there. Only exception would be for DOS software running in a suitable VM, but I don't reallt want to write DOS software these days.

    using the TP mode does allow almost all old TP code to be compiled but you'll definitely have to rip direct memory addressing stuff out and
    find other routines to replace many commercial libs you may have
    used... some of those old commercial routines are now open and already rewritten and included with FPC and/or Lazarus...

    Yeah makes sense. :)


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  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Tony Langdon on Mon Apr 20 07:29:00 2020
    Tony Langdon wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    I'm at a very basic level as well. Am going to try and fit some
    time into my schedule to work on this a little, so hopefully will
    have some questions/posts here off and on...

    Cool. :) I've got kind of sidetracked by amateur radio stuff,
    though that hobby is also fertile ground for new projects. One
    that would be useful and would involve a bit of coding is a piece
    of software that emulates a particular brand of radio, translates
    support commands to a real radio and simulates many others. The
    purpose would be to my my FT-736R more acceptable to rig control
    software, because the FT-736R's computer control is very basic.
    You're only able to set frequency, mode and a few other
    functions. A big limitation is you can't read anything.

    However, because enabling computer control locks out the radio's
    fromt panel, having an intermediate piece of software to save
    those settings for later reading should (in theory) work.

    Probably be a long time before I'm ready to take that on (and
    simpler to buy a new radio LOL). But I'd definitely like to have
    that capability.

    Haha, yes, well beyond my ability as well, at this point. Sounds
    like a fun project to work towards though! I'm probably going to
    find one of those online "tutorial" sites that start from the very
    basics and progress forwards through more advanced topics. I
    think there are several free ones around.



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  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Tony Langdon on Mon Apr 20 17:35:26 2020

    On 2020 Apr 20 09:01:00, you wrote to me:

    Yeah, I've generally only used units like Crt, which FP does
    actually have, so this isn't an issue for me.

    that unit should only be used in certain specific cases... generally
    speaking, it isn't needed for most code...

    Guess what, first program I put in, it was needed. :) Can't remember what function it was for now. :)

    probably for the clear screen routine... that or the delay routine... in fact, the delay routine is the one that lead to all the runtime 200 errors because of
    the way they did the calibration loop and didn't check if the result was zero before trying to divide it by the number of seconds the calibration loop ran...

    the libs are already written... all you have to do it use them and
    add your code to manipulate the data sent/received as desired...

    And that's the part I need to learn. ;) Reading FP documentation on network programming and using the libraries didn't help.

    yeah, there's sample code for web available... i think they're in lazarus... there are a couple of others, too, IIRC...

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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Dan Clough on Tue Apr 21 15:44:00 2020
    On 04-20-20 07:29, Dan Clough wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Probably be a long time before I'm ready to take that on (and
    simpler to buy a new radio LOL). But I'd definitely like to have
    that capability.

    Haha, yes, well beyond my ability as well, at this point. Sounds
    like a fun project to work towards though! I'm probably going to
    find one of those online "tutorial" sites that start from the very
    basics and progress forwards through more advanced topics. I
    think there are several free ones around.

    Yeah, tutorials are helpful... to a point, but I always strike a need that's not in the tutorial, and for me that's a major problem, and has derailed all sorts of projects before. :(


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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to mark lewis on Tue Apr 21 15:47:00 2020
    On 04-20-20 17:35, mark lewis wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    probably for the clear screen routine... that or the delay routine...
    in fact, the delay routine is the one that lead to all the runtime 200 errors because of the way they did the calibration loop and didn't
    check if the result was zero before trying to divide it by the number
    of seconds the calibration loop ran...

    Yeah I don't recall striking that in the TP days. Or is this a FP only bug?

    And that's the part I need to learn. ;) Reading FP documentation on network programming and using the libraries didn't help.

    yeah, there's sample code for web available... i think they're in lazarus... there are a couple of others, too, IIRC...

    I'm not interested in web for most of my applications. TCP or UDP sessions are usually more useful to me, because I want processes to be able to talk across the network plainly. :)


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  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Tony Langdon on Tue Apr 21 09:35:48 2020
    Re: Re: Still here
    By: Tony Langdon to mark lewis on Tue Apr 21 2020 15:47:00


    in fact, the delay routine is the one that lead to all the runtime
    200 errors because of the way they did the calibration loop and didn't
    check if the result was zero before trying to divide it by the number
    of seconds the calibration loop ran...

    Yeah I don't recall striking that in the TP days. Or is this
    a FP only bug?

    it is absolutely a borland bug... it affects all of their languages that used that form of delay calibration... nothing at all to do with FPC... it reared its head when machines got fast enough for the calibration loop run to completion within the same second... so they increased the loop count and got bitten again when machines sped up again... i think they had one more round of it before someone finally smartened up and finally figured out another way to calibrate the delay routine...

    the calibration loop? they were executing a certain number of NOOPs because NOOPs had a known execution time that didn't vary... so they'd execute say 10000 of them and subtract the start time from the end time to figure out the speed of the machine... when those NOOPs were all done in the same second, end - start equaled zero but they didn't check for this before doing their division
    and thus raising the RT 200 defect notification...

    And that's the part I need to learn. ;) Reading FP documentation
    on network programming and using the libraries didn't help.

    yeah, there's sample code for web available... i think they're in
    lazarus... there are a couple of others, too, IIRC...

    I'm not interested in web for most of my applications.

    the idea of my statement was to point to the existing working examples ;)

    TCP or UDP sessions are usually more useful to me, because I want
    processes to be able to talk across the network plainly. :)

    that can still be done even if using a so-called web-server/web-client setup ;)

    client sends a request.
    server sends some sort of response.
    client does its thing.

    the request could be some format you come up with or maybe it would be something in JSON or using AJAX or something else... the response could be similar, as well... it just depends on what you want done...

    i can envision serving JAM message bases directly to a client without any intervening format layering... maybe no binary by converting that to ASCII text
    for the transmittal... having a client/server message reader like that would be
    a first step toward doing a client/server BBS setup... sure, it would be a dedicated client for the users but then maybe the client would reside server side and convert to standard traditional terminal sequences so the entire client/server thing is completely hidden from the users...


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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to mark lewis on Wed Apr 22 11:32:00 2020
    On 04-21-20 09:35, mark lewis wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Yeah I don't recall striking that in the TP days. Or is this
    a FP only bug?

    it is absolutely a borland bug... it affects all of their languages
    that used that form of delay calibration... nothing at all to do with

    Ahh, OK. I must have only had old slow machines LOL

    FPC... it reared its head when machines got fast enough for the calibration loop run to completion within the same second... so they increased the loop count and got bitten again when machines sped up again... i think they had one more round of it before someone finally smartened up and finally figured out another way to calibrate the delay routine...

    Hmm, what version of TP did they finally fix that in?

    I'm not interested in web for most of my applications.

    the idea of my statement was to point to the existing working examples
    ;)

    I think I have seen them, but there was a step or 3 of knowledge in between that they dodn't cover. I don't deal well with partial information unless I can easily connect it to something I already know.

    TCP or UDP sessions are usually more useful to me, because I want
    processes to be able to talk across the network plainly. :)

    that can still be done even if using a so-called web-server/web-client setup ;)

    client sends a request.
    server sends some sort of response.
    client does its thing.

    Yeah, true. Most of my applications don't need the HTTP stuff, generally fairly raw sessions.

    the request could be some format you come up with or maybe it would be something in JSON or using AJAX or something else... the response could
    be similar, as well... it just depends on what you want done...

    Yep. :)

    i can envision serving JAM message bases directly to a client without
    any intervening format layering... maybe no binary by converting that
    to ASCII text for the transmittal... having a client/server message
    reader like that would be a first step toward doing a client/server BBS setup... sure, it would be a dedicated client for the users but then
    maybe the client would reside server side and convert to standard traditional terminal sequences so the entire client/server thing is completely hidden from the users...

    Could be an interesting evolution, though I prefer to be relatively isolated from the network for heavy duty messaging - maybe prefetching and cacheing would achieve that, such a cache could be cleared when I log off or after an expiry (probably 24 hours or less), so I'm not having to wait for network/server responses everytime I go to the next message.

    And once you go client/server, there's still the possibility of a web based client for those who like that sort of thing.


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